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burningmetal 04-12-2016 01:54 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloMotion (Post 699217)
I agree with you in theory, but probably not on the definition of "conditions", #shrug. This is every day in Detroit ... two guys (or a gal) got beef, one goes gets a gun and shoots up the place ... kids parties, family gatherings, at the mall, at the gas station, at the party store, on the block, in the house, while driving or just sitting in a car ... doesn't matter. The only reason this makes the news is because an NFL player is involved, and that condition has to change.

88% or more of young, Black men homicides are committed by other Black men ... that's the condition that has to change, IMO, that and the condition where we glorify "thug life" and perpetuate a culture of violence, that and the denial that this is purely a societal issue and also not a cultural one, #shrug. Everybody got to be an OG, #smh.

One guy was driving a Hummer, one guy a Mercedes ... I don't think poverty's necessarily a contributing condition in this situation. Both these guys had an education (Smith just completed his MBA?) ... I don't think you can pin it on lack of educational opportunities. Both guys were employed playing football, so it's not a lack of employment opportunities. If anything, I'd say both these guys took advantage of the opportunities afforded them and could reasonably be considered success stories, #shrug. The fact the shooter called 911, remained on the scene, had a registered firearm also speaks volumes, this guy wasn't the product of poor upbringing or social issues ... "lack of playgrounds" or whatever condition-of-the-week is going around wasn't the root cause behind this shooting, IMO.

I can't tell you how much I hate this shiot, reading about it, seeing it on the news every night ... it's just senseless, :neutral:.

My heart and my sincerest condolences go out to Saints Nation and all families involved, :( .
I don't want to speak for rez, as I don't know exactly what conditions he's referring to, but when I think of "conditions" I see that as a broad term for any number of possibilities. The guy who shot Will has SOMETHING wrong with him. It doesn't have to be poverty or upbringing, necessarily.

But in his case, I think you can make a strong case for his upbringing. True, he had money and perhaps a good education. But his dad was shot and killed after attacking a police officer. So he had THAT kind of parent for an example. It also just so happens that Will was friends with the cop who shot his dad. So it's highly unlikely this murder was a random thing. It's not a good reason, because Will didn't have anything to do with it, but you can bet this guy wants as many people associated with that cop to be dead, as possible.

Some people are "conditioned" to hate others. That's what leads to violence. And how do we cure that? We're not God, so all we can do is try to set a good example for those around us. We can't control what others will do. But some people have it in their minds that we can do just that, by taking away their guns, as if the gun is inherently evil. Bugs the crap out of me.

SloMotion 04-12-2016 03:03 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 699220)
I don't want to speak for rez, as I don't know exactly what conditions he's referring to, but when I think of "conditions" I see that as a broad term for any number of possibilities.
Well, I'm just referring to the standard social conditions that are typically thrown out there to minimize/transfer personal responsibility in situations like this, ie poverty, lack of educational opportunities, lack of employment opportunities, discrimination, racism, et ... they don't apply in this situation, IMO, and I think that's one of the problems in reconciling this stuff ... we don't look at these situations individually, like we should, and instead make broad, sweeping assumptions, attempting to speak to larger social issues that may or may not bear responsibility. I have no problem giving the above listed conditions an "assist" in most cases, just not this one, #shrug.

Quote:
The guy who shot Will has SOMETHING wrong with him. It doesn't have to be poverty or upbringing, necessarily.
This isn't going to be popular, but I don't think the shooter has anything wrong with him. Just the way he handled himself in that situation, ie call 911, remain on scene, seek out witnesses, et ... shows that, IMO. I guarantee you Smith didn't get out of his vehicle asking to exchange license/registration and at some point, made a credible threat that went beyond smack. This is my opinion ... Smith, the former pro football player, told Hayes he was gonna' kick his ass, Hayes said, "I got a gun", Smith said, "I got one too" and the shots in the back were the result of Hayes fearing for his life (whether that's credible or not remains to be seen) and figured he had to get Smith before Smith got him. That's how this shiot escalates, to the point where one party thinks they have justification to apply deadly force.

Quote:
But in his case, I think you can make a strong case for his upbringing. True, he had money and perhaps a good education. But his dad was shot and killed after attacking a police officer. So he had THAT kind of parent for an example. It also just so happens that Will was friends with the cop who shot his dad. So it's highly unlikely this murder was a random thing. It's not a good reason, because Will didn't have anything to do with it, but you can bet this guy wants as many people associated with that cop to be dead.
IDK the parent or the incident, so I can't comment on his upbringing other than how his (Hayes) actions are not consistent with your average hood rat or someone who had bad parenting. I do honestly think it was the result of road rage, anger management, being a hard ass, et ... I tell ya', from personal experience and seeing these types of situations constantly, people are angry, angry, angry and this stuff escalates to this level far too often.

Quote:
Some people are "conditioned" to hate others. That's what leads to violence. And how do we cure that? We're not God, so all we can do is try to set a good example for those around us. We can't control what others will do. But some people have it in their minds that we can do just that, by taking away their guns, as if the gun is inherently evil. Bugs the crap out of me.
So Hayes was conditioned to hate Smith because of his relationship with Billy Ceravolo? I can understand at how having your Dad shot by police would harden or condition you to hate (sort of like a PTSD), but if he's got an ongoing lawsuit against the police, it doesn't make sense he's gonna' go out and start eliminating people on his hate list, jeopardizing his case ... and I don't think there's enough of a connection between Smith and Ceravolo that would make this guy target Smith. I honestly think it started with the hit and run and escalated from there.

I'm not justifying Hayes' action, I've just seen this play out so many times and the end result is always the same ... and it's not always an adult that winds up shot. It's a flagrant disregard for the sanctity of life and I'm not going to point to or blame societal issues every instance. There's plenty of poor people, with basic educations and in poor situations, that don't blow people away or threaten an individual when in a confrontation, so why is it with young, Black men? IDK.

burningmetal 04-12-2016 04:37 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloMotion (Post 699229)
Well, I'm just referring to the standard social conditions that are typically thrown out there to minimize/transfer personal responsibility in situations like this, ie poverty, lack of educational opportunities, lack of employment opportunities, discrimination, racism, et ... they don't apply in this situation, IMO, and I think that's one of the problems in reconciling this stuff ... we don't look at these situations individually, like we should, and instead make broad, sweeping assumptions, attempting to speak to larger social issues that may or may not bear responsibility. I have no problem giving the above listed conditions an "assist" in most cases, just not this one, #shrug.



This isn't going to be popular, but I don't think the shooter has anything wrong with him. Just the way he handled himself in that situation, ie call 911, remain on scene, seek out witnesses, et ... shows that, IMO. I guarantee you Smith didn't get out of his vehicle asking to exchange license/registration and at some point, made a credible threat that went beyond smack. This is my opinion ... Smith, the former pro football player, told Hayes he was gonna' kick his ass, Hayes said, "I got a gun", Smith said, "I got one too" and the shots in the back were the result of Hayes fearing for his life (whether that's credible or not remains to be seen) and figured he had to get Smith before Smith got him. That's how this shiot escalates, to the point where one party thinks they have justification to apply deadly force.



IDK the parent or the incident, so I can't comment on his upbringing other than how his (Hayes) actions are not consistent with your average hood rat or someone who had bad parenting. I do honestly think it was the result of road rage, anger management, being a hard ass, et ... I tell ya', from personal experience and seeing these types of situations constantly, people are angry, angry, angry and this stuff escalates to this level far too often.



So Hayes was conditioned to hate Smith because of his relationship with Billy Ceravolo? I can understand at how having your Dad shot by police would harden or condition you to hate (sort of like a PTSD), but if he's got an ongoing lawsuit against the police, it doesn't make sense he's gonna' go out and start eliminating people on his hate list, jeopardizing his case ... and I don't think there's enough of a connection between Smith and Ceravolo that would make this guy target Smith. I honestly think it started with the hit and run and escalated from there.

I'm not justifying Hayes' action, I've just seen this play out so many times and the end result is always the same ... and it's not always an adult that winds up shot. It's a flagrant disregard for the sanctity of life and I'm not going to point to or blame societal issues every instance. There's plenty of poor people, with basic educations and in poor situations, that don't blow people away or threaten an individual when in a confrontation, so why is it with young, Black men? IDK.
Slo, I rarely disagree with you on anything, and I'm not saying I disagree with everything you said, but one doesn't simply shoot a person over road rage without having a serious personal issue. You don't have to tell me that things like this escalate, because I already know that very well. The question is how, or why, does it escalate? I've been mad at drivers for cutting in front of me, and then flipping me off when I honk at them. But I never for a second entertained the idea of killing them.

It's sounds like you think it's making excuses to say these people have something wrong with them. I'm not making ANY excuse for criminals. Whatever circumstances you came from does not give you the right to be violent. But there has to be a reason that people become the way they are. Every human being is inherently evil and capable of doing horrible things without proper guidance. Some people just never develop a moral compass. Some are born with a mental predisposition that makes them more prone to outbursts. Whatever the origin of the problem, there is certainly something wrong.

We live in a society where people are constantly being turned against each other with political rhetoric. This only fuels the problems, though it isn't the central problem.

You asked if I think he was conditioned to hate Smith because of his friendship with Ceravolo. I think it's highly likely, yes. Whatever lawsuit he had going on, he would have had a hard time winning that case. I'm not sure why I should question his willingness to jeopardize his case when that is EXACTLY what he did. Smith was shot in the back. That doesn't sound like self defense. Where's the other gun?

I'm not defending Will because he's a former Saint. I'm defending him because there is nothing to suggest he did anything to get himself shot. I don't care what he said to the guy. If Hayes chased him down, then I'm quite sure there was a pretty loud argument between them. But to shoot Smith AND his wife?

When did I say that all poor people go around shooting others? I mentioned a few of the symptoms (didn't think I had to list every single one) that lead to crime, in making my point that blaming the weapon is misguided.

Why do young black men kill each other so much? I don't know either, other than to say that it's a cultural issue. You said yourself, everyone wants to be an OG. Well, why is that? They grow up around gangs and they want to a part of it I'm guessing? Am I making some kind of excuse when I say that? I sure don't think so. It's not ok to be a gangster because everyone else around you is caught up in it. But that's the way it is. I have no idea if Hayes had any gang affiliation. But I know that to kill a person it takes an extraordinary amount of anger that goes far beyond just road rage. Yeah, he had road rage alright, but to take it to that level? Will Smith was as quiet as any professional athlete out there. I don't find it credible that he would have made a gun threat, even as a bluff.

I'm really confused how we can say that people just commit murders without any deep-seeded hatred. Even if Hayes had no idea who Smith was, he obviously had enough anger to kill him over a fender bender. Is that anything less than hatred? Did he kill him because he was bored?

We don't have much information about the so- called hit and run. There's no telling if Hayes provoked Smith to bump him, or if it was initiated by Smith. Either way, I'm sure that did escalate the problem, but to kill him right after he was hanging out with ceravolo, it seems awful unlikely that that didn't contribute to his reason for shooting him. I can't say for sure though. So let's assume he had no clue who he was shooting. Give me evidence that Will threatened him. The fact that the killer didn't flee the scene tells me that he panicked. I've heard of numerous cases of people calling 911 after killing someone to stage it as an accident, or self defense.

rezburna 04-12-2016 07:49 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloMotion (Post 699217)
I agree with you in theory, but probably not on the definition of "conditions", #shrug. This is every day in Detroit ... two guys (or a gal) got beef, one goes gets a gun and shoots up the place ... kids parties, family gatherings, at the mall, at the gas station, at the party store, on the block, in the house, while driving or just sitting in a car ... doesn't matter. The only reason this makes the news is because an NFL player is involved, and that condition has to change.

88% or more of young, Black men homicides are committed by other Black men ... that's the condition that has to change, IMO, that and the condition where we glorify "thug life" and perpetuate a culture of violence, that and the denial that this is purely a societal issue and also not a cultural one, #shrug. Everybody got to be an OG, #smh.

One guy was driving a Hummer, one guy a Mercedes ... I don't think poverty's necessarily a contributing condition in this situation. Both these guys had an education (Smith just completed his MBA?) ... I don't think you can pin it on lack of educational opportunities. Both guys were employed playing football, so it's not a lack of employment opportunities. If anything, I'd say both these guys took advantage of the opportunities afforded them and could reasonably be considered success stories, #shrug. The fact the shooter called 911, remained on the scene, had a registered firearm also speaks volumes, this guy wasn't the product of poor upbringing or social issues ... "lack of playgrounds" or whatever condition-of-the-week is going around wasn't the root cause behind this shooting, IMO.

I can't tell you how much I hate this shiot, reading about it, seeing it on the news every night ... it's just senseless, :neutral:.

My heart and my sincerest condolences go out to Saints Nation and all families involved, :( .
I understand your premise in this individual incident, but poverty, poor education, and societal dismissal go hand in hand with poverty globally. That's way before we even start the conversation on systematic racism and PTSD as well as other mental health issues young, Black people don't get quality care for. I just wrote a discussion for school about the lack of mental health care for minorities, with an emphasis on African Americans. The Black Middle Class, although I'd argue there's really no such thing, has crime rates not much different from their counterparts. America created ghettos with red lining, zoning laws, and housing discrimination. They got the idea from Hitler and didn't even bother to change the name. So at the end of the day, the heart of the problem is socioeconomic. Playing 400 year catch up isn't easy. To be honest, we never will. As far as this incident in particular is concerned, it's like John Lennon getting shot and killed. It just happened, and it's unfortunate.

Also, all homicides are overwhelmingly intraracial. I agree with you when it comes to the lack of "care" shown by our country in war zones like Detroit and Chicago. It shouldn't take a football player to draw attention to the help that's needed across the country. This has become my greatest passion. I go over statistics and socioeconomic studies all day. I watch professors, doctors, activists, and politicians give insight and solutions or lack thereof. I read the historical events and legislature, as well as the current events and legislature. I really, really care. I was blessed. I had both parents. They gave me a great foundation. I don't have to be worried about where I started and the people still stuck there, but I am. I'll have my bachelor's in Healthcare Administration and Education in August. I'm going right back for my Master's. I want to open up clinics, and one day hospitals in these impoverished areas. I want to target those children and guide them into Healthcare fields where they can come work for me. I want to save the culture, because I know nobody else will.

voodooido 04-12-2016 09:50 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 699276)
I understand your premise in this individual incident, but poverty, poor education, and societal dismissal go hand in hand with poverty globally. That's way before we even start the conversation on systematic racism and PTSD as well as other mental health issues young, Black people don't get quality care for. I just wrote a discussion for school about the lack of mental health care for minorities, with an emphasis on African Americans. The Black Middle Class, although I'd argue there's really no such thing, has crime rates not much different from their counterparts. America created ghettos with red lining, zoning laws, and housing discrimination. They got the idea from Hitler and didn't even bother to change the name. So at the end of the day, the heart of the problem is socioeconomic. Playing 400 year catch up isn't easy. To be honest, we never will. As far as this incident in particular is concerned, it's like John Lennon getting shot and killed. It just happened, and it's unfortunate.

Also, all homicides are overwhelmingly intraracial. I agree with you when it comes to the lack of "care" shown by our country in war zones like Detroit and Chicago. It shouldn't take a football player to draw attention to the help that's needed across the country. This has become my greatest passion. I go over statistics and socioeconomic studies all day. I watch professors, doctors, activists, and politicians give insight and solutions or lack thereof. I read the historical events and legislature, as well as the current events and legislature. I really, really care. I was blessed. I had both parents. They gave me a great foundation. I don't have to be worried about where I started and the people still stuck there, but I am. I'll have my bachelor's in Healthcare Administration and Education in August. I'm going right back for my Master's. I want to open up clinics, and one day hospitals in these impoverished areas. I want to target those children and guide them into Healthcare fields where they can come work for me. I want to save the culture, because I know nobody else will.
Wait, did I just read you can get PTSD by being a young black male? Please for the love of God don't go there. As a military vet and a LEO I find that more offensive than anything I have ever read on here. PTSD is not a STD or the FLU. A ton of military vets who come home after being shot at everyday should not be in the same boat as someone growing up on the south side.

skymike 04-12-2016 10:00 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
I knew this was gonna get stupid.

arsaint 04-12-2016 10:03 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skymike (Post 699291)
I knew this was gonna get stupid.
Always does because you have the emotional camp and the sinister camp combining to attack the logical camp...

CheramieIII 04-12-2016 10:48 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Logically everyone has a right to own a gun. I would say that those who have committed any kind of gun crime should never be allowed to own one but those people don't get guns legally. When you enact new laws to limit ownership then you hurt the good people not the ones who commit crimes. look at Chicago. I would also say that people with serious mental disorders should not be allowed either but once you start restricting it where does it end?

saintfan 04-12-2016 11:51 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by voodooido (Post 699290)
Wait, did I just read you can get PTSD by being a young black male? Please for the love of God don't go there. As a military vet and a LEO I find that more offensive than anything I have ever read on here. PTSD is not a STD or the FLU. A ton of military vets who come home after being shot at everyday should not be in the same boat as someone growing up on the south side.
PTSD can (and does) happen to lots of people due to lots of things. It doesn't have to be a war zone, it just has to be traumatic. And it's real. Very real.

lee909 04-13-2016 12:17 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoDat!656 (Post 699124)
"It seems to have worked for the UK; just sayin'"
Well that is rubbish. We have few armed officers. Those that are generally guard embassies,parliment etc. Saying crime was rare in a 1900 is a joke too. Just nobody cared when the poor were beaten,raped or murdered.

A ban on guns stops alot of deaths purely by people having time to think before they act. A heated argument doesn't escalate to a shooting.

But i dont live over there so its nothing to do with me

lee909 04-13-2016 12:22 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 699143)
The right to bear arms main reason for being a part of The Constitution is just in case the people ever had to take up arms against the government. I'm indifferent on the issue. I've never owned a gun, although I've shot em a couple times. I might get one now that I have a daughter. Lol. But it's whatever. My concern is eradicating the conditions that most often lead to violent crime.
Owning a gun to take up arms against the government is a joke in this day and age. You really think its going to end well. It worked in yhe 1700s when you all had muskets but you think it would work today with drones etc

hagan714 04-13-2016 04:56 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
England is not a good place to compare this issue to. The laws are old and to well established. States are flooded with guns as one would expect for the worlds leading producer and supplier.

Illegal gun availability will always be the key point.

Politically it is all about killing the other parties golden goose. Abortion on side and the 2nd amendment on the other.

To be honest neither side of the issue really cares about life. It is all about the fame surrounding the killing of the others golden goose. Not you and me.

congress has done little to change my view point since the day I started voting.

On the local level I ask myself why has the city of New Orleans allowed itself to continuously compete for the title of the murder capital of the united states and has done little or next to nothing to stop it.

SloMotion 04-13-2016 05:51 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 699236)
Slo, I rarely disagree with you on anything, and I'm not saying I disagree with everything you said, but one doesn't simply shoot a person over road rage without having a serious personal issue. You don't have to tell me that things like this escalate, because I already know that very well. The question is how, or why, does it escalate? I've been mad at drivers for cutting in front of me, and then flipping me off when I honk at them. But I never for a second entertained the idea of killing them.
It's not a disagreement, it's a discussion, and I appreciate your opinions. When you stop talking about stuff is when the problems start, IMO.

Quote:
It's sounds like you think it's making excuses to say these people have something wrong with them. I'm not making ANY excuse for criminals. Whatever circumstances you came from does not give you the right to be violent. But there has to be a reason that people become the way they are. Every human being is inherently evil and capable of doing horrible things without proper guidance. Some people just never develop a moral compass. Some are born with a mental predisposition that makes them more prone to outbursts. Whatever the origin of the problem, there is certainly something wrong.
I'm just trying to make sense of it all and I do think it's making excuses to some extent, the constant attempt to apply mitigating factors to situations like this vs just applying personal responsibility. It's a mistake we make, IMO, that we don't consider these incidents in a more individual/specific manner. Does growing up poor make you a shooter? Does lack of opportunity remove you from personal responsibility for your actions? I don't think so and in this case, I don't think any of the usual excuses apply and I'm sitting here thinking, "now what?" ... how do we reconcile this one? It wasn't the gun's fault, it wasn't poverty's fault, it wasn't lack of educational/employment opportunities fault. I agree, some people are just no damn good and what you said there about proper guidance is very profound, IMO.

Quote:
You asked if I think he was conditioned to hate Smith because of his friendship with Ceravolo. I think it's highly likely, yes. Whatever lawsuit he had going on, he would have had a hard time winning that case. I'm not sure why I should question his willingness to jeopardize his case when that is EXACTLY what he did. Smith was shot in the back. That doesn't sound like self defense. Where's the other gun?
I just don't see how Hayes would ever know Smith and Ceravolo were acquainted and how he would use that as a motive vs Smith. I would have thought had Hayes harbored a grudge, it would be vs Ceravolo more so than Smith ... and they did find a few more guns.

Quote:
When did I say that all poor people go around shooting others? I mentioned a few of the symptoms (didn't think I had to list every single one) that lead to crime, in making my point that blaming the weapon is misguided.
Well, I hope I didn't imply that in making my point that there's gzillions of poor people, uneducated people, unemployed people, et ... that go about their daily business without shooting each other, so maybe we should start focusing on some of the other root causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 699276)
I understand your premise in this individual incident, but poverty, poor education, and societal dismissal go hand in hand with poverty globally. That's way before we even start the conversation on systematic racism and PTSD as well as other mental health issues young, Black people don't get quality care for. I just wrote a discussion for school about the lack of mental health care for minorities, with an emphasis on African Americans. The Black Middle Class, although I'd argue there's really no such thing, has crime rates not much different from their counterparts. America created ghettos with red lining, zoning laws, and housing discrimination. They got the idea from Hitler and didn't even bother to change the name. So at the end of the day, the heart of the problem is socioeconomic. Playing 400 year catch up isn't easy. To be honest, we never will. As far as this incident in particular is concerned, it's like John Lennon getting shot and killed. It just happened, and it's unfortunate.

Also, all homicides are overwhelmingly intraracial. I agree with you when it comes to the lack of "care" shown by our country in war zones like Detroit and Chicago. It shouldn't take a football player to draw attention to the help that's needed across the country. This has become my greatest passion. I go over statistics and socioeconomic studies all day. I watch professors, doctors, activists, and politicians give insight and solutions or lack thereof. I read the historical events and legislature, as well as the current events and legislature. I really, really care. I was blessed. I had both parents. They gave me a great foundation. I don't have to be worried about where I started and the people still stuck there, but I am. I'll have my bachelor's in Healthcare Administration and Education in August. I'm going right back for my Master's. I want to open up clinics, and one day hospitals in these impoverished areas. I want to target those children and guide them into Healthcare fields where they can come work for me. I want to save the culture, because I know nobody else will.
I hear ya bro, and there's a lot you just posted that I agree with ... some, not so much, but I knew we'd eventually get to this point, ;). I agree this incident (and a lot of others) "just happened" and it just gets harder all the time for me to wrap my head around it. I don't disagree that socioeconomic conditions play a big role in some of these incidents, but when we have situations where socioeconomic roles don't play as big a part, where do we go from there? At that point, when the mitigating factors have been removed or minimized, I think you have to start applying personal responsibility and looking elsewhere for a root cause.

Good point about homicides, which is why I get a miffed at the attention paid to a homicide committed by a cop when, IMO, there's the much larger issue of intraracial, intrafamily/domestic type homicides. I realize organizations like BLM, MoveOn.org are using these incidents as platforms to call attention to socioeconomic & race issues as a whole, but IDK, I'd like to see them apply as much time & effort to some of the Black-on-Black issues as they do the White-on-Black issues, #shrug. I guess one of my questions is, "What is the end-game?". Like you said, it's hard to play 400yrs of catch-up and we'll never get there. So are we to consider the Black community permanent victims? At what point do we acknowledge that there's actually been quite a bit of progress and then try to move on from there? It just seems to me the current civil rights movement can't find a way to build on their successes and so instead remains mired in the past. Just my perspective, #shrug. IDK, I've dealt with this my whole life and just seems like we're going backwards, on all levels, all issues, et ... in all communities. Considering the progress I've seen in civil rights, I'd personally like to see it focus more on a poor-person level vs an ethnic level, but I'm not saying there still aren't issues to address, just maybe change focus/direction a little bit to align with the new millennium.

And I applaud/commend your efforts/goals. I had a neighbor who started a school for nursing assistants, LPN's, phlebotomists and medical type careers that you could get into with just a license and without having to attend a four-year college, et ... I really admired that because she didn't just pay lip service to helping people and/or the community, she actually went out and did it, :). One time when I was laid off, she even got me to go through the CNA course, but that's another story, :lol: ... and don't think I don't appreciate the "save the culture because no one else will" sentiment, because I do. That's one thing we're all hard-wired to do, look out for our own, but we still have to be considerate of others & that's something everyone could probably work on more, IMO. :neutral:.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodooido (Post 699290)
Wait, did I just read you can get PTSD by being a young black male? Please for the love of God don't go there. As a military vet and a LEO I find that more offensive than anything I have ever read on here. PTSD is not a STD or the FLU. A ton of military vets who come home after being shot at everyday should not be in the same boat as someone growing up on the south side.
Yes, you can. Seeing as how PTSD is triggered by exposure to traumatic events, growing up da' hood can be pretty traumatic, and it's not unique to Black males, any ethnicity can experience it. You ever wonder why people who have been subjected to years of abuse commit heinous crimes or engage in dangerous behaviors? It's a form of PTSD, they just have to come up with a civilian term for it, #shrug.

rezburna 04-13-2016 06:57 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloMotion (Post 699314)
It's not a disagreement, it's a discussion, and I appreciate your opinions. When you stop talking about stuff is when the problems start, IMO.



I'm just trying to make sense of it all and I do think it's making excuses to some extent, the constant attempt to apply mitigating factors to situations like this vs just applying personal responsibility. It's a mistake we make, IMO, that we don't consider these incidents in a more individual/specific manner. Does growing up poor make you a shooter? Does lack of opportunity remove you from personal responsibility for your actions? I don't think so and in this case, I don't think any of the usual excuses apply and I'm sitting here thinking, "now what?" ... how do we reconcile this one? It wasn't the gun's fault, it wasn't poverty's fault, it wasn't lack of educational/employment opportunities fault. I agree, some people are just no damn good and what you said there about proper guidance is very profound, IMO.



I just don't see how Hayes would ever know Smith and Ceravolo were acquainted and how he would use that as a motive vs Smith. I would have thought had Hayes harbored a grudge, it would be vs Ceravolo more so than Smith ... and they did find a few more guns.



Well, I hope I didn't imply that in making my point that there's gzillions of poor people, uneducated people, unemployed people, et ... that go about their daily business without shooting each other, so maybe we should start focusing on some of the other root causes.



I hear ya bro, and there's a lot you just posted that I agree with ... some, not so much, but I knew we'd eventually get to this point, ;). I agree this incident (and a lot of others) "just happened" and it just gets harder all the time for me to wrap my head around it. I don't disagree that socioeconomic conditions play a big role in some of these incidents, but when we have situations where socioeconomic roles don't play as big a part, where do we go from there? At that point, when the mitigating factors have been removed or minimized, I think you have to start applying personal responsibility and looking elsewhere for a root cause.

Good point about homicides, which is why I get a miffed at the attention paid to a homicide committed by a cop when, IMO, there's the much larger issue of intraracial, intrafamily/domestic type homicides. I realize organizations like BLM, MoveOn.org are using these incidents as platforms to call attention to socioeconomic & race issues as a whole, but IDK, I'd like to see them apply as much time & effort to some of the Black-on-Black issues as they do the White-on-Black issues, #shrug. I guess one of my questions is, "What is the end-game?". Like you said, it's hard to play 400yrs of catch-up and we'll never get there. So are we to consider the Black community permanent victims? At what point do we acknowledge that there's actually been quite a bit of progress and then try to move on from there? It just seems to me the current civil rights movement can't find a way to build on their successes and so instead remains mired in the past. Just my perspective, #shrug. IDK, I've dealt with this my whole life and just seems like we're going backwards, on all levels, all issues, et ... in all communities. Considering the progress I've seen in civil rights, I'd personally like to see it focus more on a poor-person level vs an ethnic level, but I'm not saying there still aren't issues to address, just maybe change focus/direction a little bit to align with the new millennium.

And I applaud/commend your efforts/goals. I had a neighbor who started a school for nursing assistants, LPN's, phlebotomists and medical type careers that you could get into with just a license and without having to attend a four-year college, et ... I really admired that because she didn't just pay lip service to helping people and/or the community, she actually went out and did it, :). One time when I was laid off, she even got me to go through the CNA course, but that's another story, :lol: ... and don't think I don't appreciate the "save the culture because no one else will" sentiment, because I do. That's one thing we're all hard-wired to do, look out for our own, but we still have to be considerate of others & that's something everyone could probably work on more, IMO. :neutral:.



Yes, you can. Seeing as how PTSD is triggered by exposure to traumatic events, growing up da' hood can be pretty traumatic, and it's not unique to Black males, any ethnicity can experience it. You ever wonder why people who have been subjected to years of abuse commit heinous crimes or engage in dangerous behaviors? It's a form of PTSD, they just have to come up with a civilian term for it, #shrug.
I was going to respond to the PTSD comment, but y'all did it for me. Also, go listen to Dr. Joy DeGruy's lecture on PTSD. She put a unique twist on it that could be very enlightening.

Overall, I agree with most of what you're saying as well, so I rather not nitpick or start larger debates when we both are really close to an understanding. I always get everybody's "name's" confused, so if you're the guy I got into that argument with a while back, thanks for being cool.

rezburna 04-13-2016 07:00 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee909 (Post 699304)
Owning a gun to take up arms against the government is a joke in this day and age. You really think its going to end well. It worked in yhe 1700s when you all had muskets but you think it would work today with drones etc
You'd be surprised. There's people running around with most of what the military has. I'm sure we'd probably lose, but the rest of the world would be watching, and enemies of your enemies become friends.

jeanpierre 04-13-2016 07:18 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Actually, because the populace outnumbers the military by such a wide margin it makes a coup by force more challengeing, especially when you factor that the American populace is so heavily armed...

But getting back on point...

Coach Payton broke one of his golden rules - never take to social media under emotional duress; and am disappointed he did that, but it just shows human he is...

And while I appreciate his honesty and heart-felt hurt over the loss of Will Smith, he should no better...

However, as his adopted home city, we should being doing a better job of sharing and showing our values and why we're better than say, Illinois...

Really surprised no one has stepped up and invited him to a shooting range or armorers club where he could become educated on firearms; futher, I'd hope he'd find, what I've learned from experience, that many of the members and regulars in firearms ranges, clubs are some of the finest, most well-grounded citizens you could ever hope to meet...

In fact, being around many of these people, you will find they have as deep and healthy an appreciation of life and civil liberties of any human beings you will come to associate...

It is my prayer that Coach Payton has, and seizes, such an opportunity should it present itself for him...

Cruize 04-13-2016 08:28 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
It's funny that reading this thread tells me the same people who think Mr. Payton was wrong in voicing his opinion, a constitutional right by the way, are doing so because he spoke out against another constitutional right, owning guns. Hypocrisy much? LOL.

Danno 04-13-2016 08:37 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruize (Post 699323)
It's funny that reading this thread tells me the same people who think Mr. Payton was wrong in voicing his opinion, a constitutional right by the way, are doing so because he spoke out against another constitutional right, owning guns. Hypocrisy much? LOL.
He wasn't criticized for voicing his opinion, he was criticized for his stance on guns. its our constitutional right to voice our opinion of his opinion.

No hypocrisy at all.

arsaint 04-13-2016 09:24 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
And to add to what Danno said well - nobody is criticizing SP if he wants nothing to do with guns or doesn't want one to protect his family - fine and dandy - that's his choice as an American.

He's also perfectly within his rights to say he hates guns. I hate beets. Other people hate asparagus - it's a free country (somewhat) - we can love/hate inanimate objects all we want.


Where Sean crosses the line is when he calls for ME not to have a gun to protect MY family.

If some thug kicks open my door and threatens my family is Sean going to hop in a private jet and come help me? Or pay for a security guard to walk around my house at night? Somehow I doubt it...

Our men and women in blue do a fantastic job - but they are few in number, and best case 10 minutes from my house. A lot of bad things can be done by some bastard who cares nothing for life in 10 minutes...


And "PS" - you want the CORRECT perspective on this, don't listen to me but listen to Drew Brees' interview with Deke on WWL from 4/11. Drew tells people the problem - IT'S THE PEOPLE, not the instrument with which they commit evil that are the problem...

burningmetal 04-13-2016 12:09 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloMotion (Post 699314)
It's not a disagreement, it's a discussion, and I appreciate your opinions. When you stop talking about stuff is when the problems start, IMO.



I'm just trying to make sense of it all and I do think it's making excuses to some extent, the constant attempt to apply mitigating factors to situations like this vs just applying personal responsibility. It's a mistake we make, IMO, that we don't consider these incidents in a more individual/specific manner. Does growing up poor make you a shooter? Does lack of opportunity remove you from personal responsibility for your actions? I don't think so and in this case, I don't think any of the usual excuses apply and I'm sitting here thinking, "now what?" ... how do we reconcile this one? It wasn't the gun's fault, it wasn't poverty's fault, it wasn't lack of educational/employment opportunities fault. I agree, some people are just no damn good and what you said there about proper guidance is very profound, IMO.



I just don't see how Hayes would ever know Smith and Ceravolo were acquainted and how he would use that as a motive vs Smith. I would have thought had Hayes harbored a grudge, it would be vs Ceravolo more so than Smith ... and they did find a few more guns.



Well, I hope I didn't imply that in making my point that there's gzillions of poor people, uneducated people, unemployed people, et ... that go about their daily business without shooting each other, so maybe we should start focusing on some of the other root causes.



I hear ya bro, and there's a lot you just posted that I agree with ... some, not so much, but I knew we'd eventually get to this point, ;). I agree this incident (and a lot of others) "just happened" and it just gets harder all the time for me to wrap my head around it. I don't disagree that socioeconomic conditions play a big role in some of these incidents, but when we have situations where socioeconomic roles don't play as big a part, where do we go from there? At that point, when the mitigating factors have been removed or minimized, I think you have to start applying personal responsibility and looking elsewhere for a root cause.

Good point about homicides, which is why I get a miffed at the attention paid to a homicide committed by a cop when, IMO, there's the much larger issue of intraracial, intrafamily/domestic type homicides. I realize organizations like BLM, MoveOn.org are using these incidents as platforms to call attention to socioeconomic & race issues as a whole, but IDK, I'd like to see them apply as much time & effort to some of the Black-on-Black issues as they do the White-on-Black issues, #shrug. I guess one of my questions is, "What is the end-game?". Like you said, it's hard to play 400yrs of catch-up and we'll never get there. So are we to consider the Black community permanent victims? At what point do we acknowledge that there's actually been quite a bit of progress and then try to move on from there? It just seems to me the current civil rights movement can't find a way to build on their successes and so instead remains mired in the past. Just my perspective, #shrug. IDK, I've dealt with this my whole life and just seems like we're going backwards, on all levels, all issues, et ... in all communities. Considering the progress I've seen in civil rights, I'd personally like to see it focus more on a poor-person level vs an ethnic level, but I'm not saying there still aren't issues to address, just maybe change focus/direction a little bit to align with the new millennium.

And I applaud/commend your efforts/goals. I had a neighbor who started a school for nursing assistants, LPN's, phlebotomists and medical type careers that you could get into with just a license and without having to attend a four-year college, et ... I really admired that because she didn't just pay lip service to helping people and/or the community, she actually went out and did it, :). One time when I was laid off, she even got me to go through the CNA course, but that's another story, :lol: ... and don't think I don't appreciate the "save the culture because no one else will" sentiment, because I do. That's one thing we're all hard-wired to do, look out for our own, but we still have to be considerate of others & that's something everyone could probably work on more, IMO. :neutral:.



Yes, you can. Seeing as how PTSD is triggered by exposure to traumatic events, growing up da' hood can be pretty traumatic, and it's not unique to Black males, any ethnicity can experience it. You ever wonder why people who have been subjected to years of abuse commit heinous crimes or engage in dangerous behaviors? It's a form of PTSD, they just have to come up with a civilian term for it, #shrug.
I hear you man, and I agree about not passing off responsibility of the people who commit the crimes. That's a point that I've tried to stress. I don't ever say that because a person was subject to this, or neglected of that, that they aren't responsible for the choices they make. My point is only that I think murderers have to be seriously messed up in the head, to put it simply. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has regrets, but taking a life (unless it is actually in self defense) shows a lack of humanity. It's just total, unadulterated rage. And there are any number of reasons that could lead to that. None of which provide a valid excuse.

As far as the possibility of Hayes knowing of Ceravolo and Smith being friends, my premise is that Hayes may have been tracking Ceravolo and saw them hanging out that night. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but I'm trying to make some kind of sense (not that it will ever really make sense) out of why you would shoot a guy over so little, and how it could be a coincidence that Will Smith was hanging out with the guy who Hayes is suing for the death of his father, and then gets shot by Hayes just a short time later.

The gun in Smith's car was an incredibly late detail added to this, that definitely changed the possible scenarios. I still haven't heard anything that makes me believe that Hayes had any right to shoot him, but the fact that Smith at least had a gun, opens up possibilities of how it got out of hand. I expected to hear more details in the following days, but I didn't expect to hear so far after the fact that there was another gun. I don't get why that took so long to be discovered, or reported.

QBREES9 04-13-2016 01:14 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
It's not the guns, It's the people who own the guns. Eveyone's a tough guy, standing behind a gun.

Danno 04-13-2016 03:42 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by QBREES9 (Post 699357)
It's not the guns, It's the people who own the guns. Eveyone's a tough guy, standing behind a gun.
Yep, a 5-2", 90 lb female about to be raped looks like one tough MoFo holding a .45

Its the equalizer.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5790595734.jpg

lynwood 04-13-2016 06:40 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
You know...

Danno 04-13-2016 07:20 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynwood (Post 699396)
You know...
about...

SloMotion 04-14-2016 04:58 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezburna (Post 699315)
I was going to respond to the PTSD comment, but y'all did it for me. Also, go listen to Dr. Joy DeGruy's lecture on PTSD. She put a unique twist on it that could be very enlightening.

Overall, I agree with most of what you're saying as well, so I rather not nitpick or start larger debates when we both are really close to an understanding. I always get everybody's "name's" confused, so if you're the guy I got into that argument with a while back, thanks for being cool.
Yeah, we're not so different, you & I, or anybody else on here, :) .

neugey 04-14-2016 06:49 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Kobe and Steph 4/13 showing the thugs and the lowlifes what real shooting is.

Thirty3 04-14-2016 07:57 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
I hate consistent 7 and 9

rezburna 04-14-2016 08:09 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirty3 (Post 699430)
I hate consistent 7 and 9
The shade is real af. 😂😂😂

jeanpierre 04-14-2016 08:32 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsaint (Post 699125)
No need to cross the Pond.

Gun Utopia is already in our country and is wildly "successful"...

Chicagoland: 857 Chicago Shooting Victims In 100 Days | Weasel Zippers
It's Vermont's fault, ask Hillary, she'll tell ya...

Marlboro Man 04-15-2016 02:37 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Ok so go be a victim. Whatever. Just lost some respect for ya there Payton. It's people like you that will have all of rights taken away.

SmashMouth 04-15-2016 03:45 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
http://i.imgur.com/RcJcOww.gif

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...psh6ton3uj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7i4sPdC.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps1i1iy1kq.gif

http://i.imgur.com/hOa1p8h.jpg

jeanpierre 04-15-2016 05:58 AM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Wow, Smash, just...wow...

Any chance that you and Foreverfan are related?!? Just curious...

OldMaid 04-16-2016 05:05 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Mitch| (Post 699115)
It seems to have worked for the UK; just sayin'
Ok, everyone always brings up The U.K.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In The United Kingdom of Great Britian, guns are rampant and easy to get. THAT IS for the nobility, aristos, landed gentry, and those on the outer fringe, yet connected, to those in that U.K. class system.

How can you go on hunts without your guns!!

The peasants, I mean, other classes than these people are NOT allowed guns.
Oh. Well, in The United States of America, our laws, etc. do not have that same class system.

Be it wrong, right, whatever your thoughts and feelings are, guns are here to stay and have been since the country was founded.
PROBLEM- criminal justice system. This thug/POS, now being called a gentle giant, Hayes, with a criminal background was a just a case like this waiting to happen. See The Advocate in B.R. for a write up the "gentle giant" from the babershop pals. ReallY PLU-LEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where oh where did I hear the GENTLE GIANT bullshet from before? Oh yeah....
Problem-working harder to get guns out of those who do not need them
( the crazy mother in CT with her troubled son). Rich White woman in rich White area and rich White area of town did not need guns around her son who had issues of Asbergers and/or Autism, etc. She also never needed to show him how to shoot.
Criminals do not need guns. Trying to stop the black market of guns can put some dent in it. Trying to catch those criminals/felons with guns can put some sort of dent in it. Assault weapons, you really do not need those kinds of weapons.
These things, hard to do to stop weapons out the hands of the wrong people.
Yeah, perfect system, only those who can have guns should have them , but who is to say WHO should have guns? Take criminals out of the equation. Lets just say no criminals can get guns. Ok for debating..sake of argument.
Ok, so only law abiding citizens. Ok, well who are they?
That would stop more than half of us here, realy LOL, 99.9 99999 % of us from having a gun. YES it would. Like in THE UNITED KINGDOM, ONLY the wealthy of the nobitlity/aristos/landed gentry and those on the fringe but well connected to these people can have and do have guns.

Ok, I am off my soapbox. :greendevil:Sorry for rant.:mad:

OldMaid 04-16-2016 05:39 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
jeanpirre's post on pg. 6 about Coach SP, I agree. YES, he is very emotional right now. He simply spoke from the heart, emotionally, about this issue. Looking for something, someone to blame.
I give him a pass.
He, like Rosie O'Donnell, Bob Costas, etc. are NOT against guns. They spew off from an emotional point like Coach SP or an elitist's point like O'Donnell and Costas.
TRUST ME TRUST ME, Ms. Skylenne and Coach SP's ex wife and kids are very safe as they can be in their worlds. I do not care how White you are or if you are Black or whatever, you are not going up to their front doors or even freely drive around their neighborhoods. They have private armed security patrols.
Remember when O'Donnell brought her gun stance, she had private armed security for her children. AND no, I do not blame her for having armed private bodyguards for her kids. Lots of nuts out there and maybe she was under threat or something at that time.

Costas the other elitists , LOL, I had posted then when he went on the air talking about his gun viewpoint, ummm, try , go on and try to enter his Park Ave/Upper Central Park/Trump apt, whatever building. You be be shot on the spot. LOL!!! Go on and try to enter the broadcasting booth , LOL. Again, shot on the spot!!

Guns. Whether you are a gun owner or not, and that is your choice to own or not, I have been told, you NEVER want to use it. You really don't.
God forbid you EVER have to use it.
I think that is pretty powerful. Think about that for a minute.

Criminal Hayes shot Smith 8 times and shot Smith's wife 2 times. The Smith kids were less than maybe 10 minutes close to being orphans.
Think about that for a minute.

This Hayes thug 's life was NOT in danger. He was in his army vehicle of a Hummer. He , nor his male passenger , was not about to be robbed, raped, beat up , kidnapped, in fear of life, etc. by Smith and wife.
Think about that for a minute.

You have here typical case of wrong hands on a gun. PROBLEM-how do you stop guns out of the wrong hands of people.
How do you stop this culture we have here of gun violence?

UK_WhoDat 04-17-2016 01:34 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMaid (Post 699665)
Ok, everyone always brings up The U.K.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
Yes it is WRONG to bring up the United Kingdom. It is a completely different place to the United States of America. The two places may have words that sound the same. And the United Kingdom certrtainly have its share of citizens that admires so much that is US of A. However when it comes to guns and ownership, there is a chasm.

What the US of A does is none of nmy business.

Simplistically in the UK: Any person can apply for a permit. The ownership of guns. FIREARMS, is not down to class, or nobility or wealth. It does not mean the application is granted positively. Usually any permits granted are for SHOTGUNS only for landowners, who need not be nobility or rich or of a certain class, for use on their land. The permit is for a Shotgun, not a rifle or an automatic side arm. The permit is for use only on their land. They are not allowed by law to carry it on their person to a public place or in their vehicle. When the gun is not required for use, it must be locked away.

An exception is if one requires a firearm for sport. Membership of the relevant sport is a pre-requisite; e.g. biathlon. Then the firearm is locked at the base for that sport.

skymike 04-18-2016 09:01 PM
Re: Saints coach Payton: 'I hate guns'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMaid (Post 699669)
jeanpirre's post on pg. 6 about Coach SP, I agree. YES, he is very emotional right now. He simply spoke from the heart, emotionally, about this issue. Looking for something, someone to blame.
I give him a pass.
He, like Rosie O'Donnell, Bob Costas, etc. are NOT against guns. They spew off from an emotional point like Coach SP or an elitist's point like O'Donnell and Costas.
TRUST ME TRUST ME, Ms. Skylenne and Coach SP's ex wife and kids are very safe as they can be in their worlds. I do not care how White you are or if you are Black or whatever, you are not going up to their front doors or even freely drive around their neighborhoods. They have private armed security patrols.
Remember when O'Donnell brought her gun stance, she had private armed security for her children. AND no, I do not blame her for having armed private bodyguards for her kids. Lots of nuts out there and maybe she was under threat or something at that time.

Costas the other elitists , LOL, I had posted then when he went on the air talking about his gun viewpoint, ummm, try , go on and try to enter his Park Ave/Upper Central Park/Trump apt, whatever building. You be be shot on the spot. LOL!!! Go on and try to enter the broadcasting booth , LOL. Again, shot on the spot!!

Guns. Whether you are a gun owner or not, and that is your choice to own or not, I have been told, you NEVER want to use it. You really don't.
God forbid you EVER have to use it.
I think that is pretty powerful. Think about that for a minute.

Criminal Hayes shot Smith 8 times and shot Smith's wife 2 times. The Smith kids were less than maybe 10 minutes close to being orphans.
Think about that for a minute.

This Hayes thug 's life was NOT in danger. He was in his army vehicle of a Hummer. He , nor his male passenger , was not about to be robbed, raped, beat up , kidnapped, in fear of life, etc. by Smith and wife.
Think about that for a minute.

You have here typical case of wrong hands on a gun. PROBLEM-how do you stop guns out of the wrong hands of people.
How do you stop this culture we have here of gun violence?
WEll Said, Brina


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